Haley, I had to take a term on sexual ethics as part of a broader ethics class in college! With a prof (who ended up becoming a very dear mentor) who exclusively referred to sex as "the conjugal act" and quoted St. Thomas all the time, lol. (And he's not even Catholic.) We read Sex and Virtue, which is sort of an adaptation of John Paul 2: https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Virtue-Introduction-Catholic-Thought/dp/0813213460. And then had to pick a secondary source for the semester to read on our own: options included JP2's Love and Responsibility and Called to Love, which is about the theology of the body But we talked about the role of fertility in marriage and sexuality, male/female as specific embodiment of human nature, marital love in light of Nichomachean Ethics (the highest friendship being desiring the good for the other), etc etc etc. Was life changing for a lot of us, I think. And that's just a little Reformed college out in Franklin, TN. So take heart, sometimes this stuff gets taught to young people, haha!
(And, fun fact, I'd just gone through a particularly rough breakup with one of the guys in my class, and then we had to sit there and talk about how all romantic endeavors were supposed to be ordered towards seeking the good for the other person. The Lord was testing me with that one. 😂)
Olivia, it seems this is far and above what many people with fancy degrees ever got on the subject. 🤣 Again, I’m not even advocating for a strict Roman Catholic approach to every single thing here… just…. anything remotely Christian. lol
"I never heard anyone consider the theological implications of sex or reproduction outside of the basics (fornication = bad, adultery = bad, abortion = bad).
No pastor, no Sunday school teacher, no theologian ever discussed it. I even studied systematic theology informally for years: not a word of it."
Why, if they had taught about it, someone might have got the impression that all this time the Catholics had been onto something. As my late father (lifelong Evangelical) used to wryly observe: "If the Catholics go in through the doors, we Evangelicals assume, of course, that we must go in through the windows."
Haley I’m curious if in Protestant conversations you’ve seen any discussions of the spiritual implications of messing around with fertility? Even in ethical debates I have seen very little of it. But if people accept the premise that being open to life the historically normal/ now possibly old fashioned way, within marriage, is a cooperation with God’s own creative activity, then surely it follows that going against such a plan would have spiritual consequences? There will be nuance, of course, but I’ve yet to see any Protestants talking about it and I wonder if I’m missing something or if there’s just general radio silence.
Me casually telling my husband last night: You know, if you ever want to…write a paper on sexuality and fertility for your next pastors’ conference…there are people looking for some clarity on this *out there…*
I brought it up casually because it’s simply not an overwhelmingly pressing issue for many pastors in my rural area of the state, where population is decreasing and aging. (Unless we want to ask, why is this happening, of course.)The cremation vs burial talk seems far more provocative to many. And pastoral triage? always depends on needs of the flock. But there are pastors in my area talking about, counseling in, and living it.
Haley, I know you listen to plenty of podcasts already. On the Line is a fairly new long-form podcast and it seems this issue comes up repeatedly across many guests, usually pastors.
Yeah I am always so curious how these things shake out for pastors on the ground, because I’ve heard some things from pastors that reveal being truly at a loss in some of these areas, and I’m wondering how they can get whatever it is they need. They shoulder a lot!
The cremation thing is bonkers to me. I included a few reads in the newsletter in the past, because it’s in that vein of “how Christians handle and respect the body” that apparently fascinates me.
The first step for most is their personal lives; it’s good that you asked about educational experiences because that’s usually where these opinions are formed for themselves.
My husband’s seminary class on ethics discussed the dangers of ART/IVF and some related topics. While they didn’t go super in-depth on human sexuality they did go very in depth in the importance of the body and this had a lasting impression on him. This was at a Presbyterian seminary! (Though we are Baptists haha)
In pre-marital we were mostly encouraged that kids are good. Neither of the books we read during that time talked about a healthy sexual ethic pertaining to children. And neither implied that a yes to marriage is yes to children. It’s kind of assumed that that’s far down the road for you if you’re just getting married. (It was not for us haha.) Which is disappointing because we had so many discussions about this in early marriage and very few tools to guide these very heated and emotionally confusing conversations. It frustrates me that so many marriage books neglect this topic because a good portion of a marriage will involve child rearing and *ahem* child making lol. This isn’t like a fringe moment in marriage that happens once. These are conversations that happen over and over again and people have no framework to work from. Anyways it makes me angsty. Rant over. 😅
Haley, I had to take a term on sexual ethics as part of a broader ethics class in college! With a prof (who ended up becoming a very dear mentor) who exclusively referred to sex as "the conjugal act" and quoted St. Thomas all the time, lol. (And he's not even Catholic.) We read Sex and Virtue, which is sort of an adaptation of John Paul 2: https://www.amazon.com/Sex-Virtue-Introduction-Catholic-Thought/dp/0813213460. And then had to pick a secondary source for the semester to read on our own: options included JP2's Love and Responsibility and Called to Love, which is about the theology of the body But we talked about the role of fertility in marriage and sexuality, male/female as specific embodiment of human nature, marital love in light of Nichomachean Ethics (the highest friendship being desiring the good for the other), etc etc etc. Was life changing for a lot of us, I think. And that's just a little Reformed college out in Franklin, TN. So take heart, sometimes this stuff gets taught to young people, haha!
(And, fun fact, I'd just gone through a particularly rough breakup with one of the guys in my class, and then we had to sit there and talk about how all romantic endeavors were supposed to be ordered towards seeking the good for the other person. The Lord was testing me with that one. 😂)
Olivia, it seems this is far and above what many people with fancy degrees ever got on the subject. 🤣 Again, I’m not even advocating for a strict Roman Catholic approach to every single thing here… just…. anything remotely Christian. lol
Just bought Sex and Virtue on kindle for $2.99. Am I upset or elated that it was so cheap??
Yes. 😂
Great stuff here, but I'm particularly a sucker for anything on the camino.
"I never heard anyone consider the theological implications of sex or reproduction outside of the basics (fornication = bad, adultery = bad, abortion = bad).
No pastor, no Sunday school teacher, no theologian ever discussed it. I even studied systematic theology informally for years: not a word of it."
Why, if they had taught about it, someone might have got the impression that all this time the Catholics had been onto something. As my late father (lifelong Evangelical) used to wryly observe: "If the Catholics go in through the doors, we Evangelicals assume, of course, that we must go in through the windows."
Haley I’m curious if in Protestant conversations you’ve seen any discussions of the spiritual implications of messing around with fertility? Even in ethical debates I have seen very little of it. But if people accept the premise that being open to life the historically normal/ now possibly old fashioned way, within marriage, is a cooperation with God’s own creative activity, then surely it follows that going against such a plan would have spiritual consequences? There will be nuance, of course, but I’ve yet to see any Protestants talking about it and I wonder if I’m missing something or if there’s just general radio silence.
Nope! I have not. It was in the back of my head writing That Piece, but didn’t address it, as I hadn’t heard much and wouldn’t know where to begin. :)
Well, there’s a gap for someone out there to fill… :)
Not me waiting for Haley’s book 👀👀👀
Hope it’s ok to interject here:
Me casually telling my husband last night: You know, if you ever want to…write a paper on sexuality and fertility for your next pastors’ conference…there are people looking for some clarity on this *out there…*
I brought it up casually because it’s simply not an overwhelmingly pressing issue for many pastors in my rural area of the state, where population is decreasing and aging. (Unless we want to ask, why is this happening, of course.)The cremation vs burial talk seems far more provocative to many. And pastoral triage? always depends on needs of the flock. But there are pastors in my area talking about, counseling in, and living it.
Haley, I know you listen to plenty of podcasts already. On the Line is a fairly new long-form podcast and it seems this issue comes up repeatedly across many guests, usually pastors.
Thanks, Leah.
Yeah I am always so curious how these things shake out for pastors on the ground, because I’ve heard some things from pastors that reveal being truly at a loss in some of these areas, and I’m wondering how they can get whatever it is they need. They shoulder a lot!
The cremation thing is bonkers to me. I included a few reads in the newsletter in the past, because it’s in that vein of “how Christians handle and respect the body” that apparently fascinates me.
The first step for most is their personal lives; it’s good that you asked about educational experiences because that’s usually where these opinions are formed for themselves.
My husband’s seminary class on ethics discussed the dangers of ART/IVF and some related topics. While they didn’t go super in-depth on human sexuality they did go very in depth in the importance of the body and this had a lasting impression on him. This was at a Presbyterian seminary! (Though we are Baptists haha)
In pre-marital we were mostly encouraged that kids are good. Neither of the books we read during that time talked about a healthy sexual ethic pertaining to children. And neither implied that a yes to marriage is yes to children. It’s kind of assumed that that’s far down the road for you if you’re just getting married. (It was not for us haha.) Which is disappointing because we had so many discussions about this in early marriage and very few tools to guide these very heated and emotionally confusing conversations. It frustrates me that so many marriage books neglect this topic because a good portion of a marriage will involve child rearing and *ahem* child making lol. This isn’t like a fringe moment in marriage that happens once. These are conversations that happen over and over again and people have no framework to work from. Anyways it makes me angsty. Rant over. 😅
Your rant is my rant.
From California to the New York Islands 🎶
Always an honour Haley... I did guess you would like that poem, it's the most Baufieldian poem I've published so far!
A wonderful book! Even in spite of Substack’s resident Boethius scholar’s qualms.
Then Theology of Money was excellent. Brad is superb on this (rather neglected) topic.
Brad Littlejohn is prolific and undefeated on so many topics!